Where is that pesky priesthood??? (part 1)

The most necessary doctrine for the truthfulness of Mormonism is the “great apostasy”.  Without the great, or general, apostasy that Joseph Smith spoke of in the Joseph Smith History there would be no reason for a restored gospel and certainly no reason for the restored Mormon Church.  No other doctrine of the Mormon Church is more blatantly hyperbolic against the Christian Church today, with the claim that “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

In almost everything that I have read by Mormon writers concerning the great apostasy there is a common theme.  I call this the “pile it on” theme.  Every display of sin, every admonition against sin, every correction of error either moral or doctrinal is all pointed to as evidence of the great apostasy.  Often in their zeal to “pile it on”, Mormon writers fail to distinguish between “end of times” prophesies and supposed revelations that an apostasy will occur, regardless of how this will affect or conflict with other Mormon doctrine.  The problem with the “pile it on” method is that any sign of particular or individual error is pushed beyond its meaning and context to show a general or great apostasy.

Most problematic for Mormons looking for biblical proof of a great apostasy is that they are forced to ignore a whole series of promises from our Lord Jesus Christ to be with his Church until the “the end of the age.” (Matt 28:20) Additionally Mormons, looking for a general apostasy, force their hand into denying the gift of the Holy Spirit (John 14:15-19) to the Church after an undetermined point of apostasy was achieved, Christ’s personal promises to the contrary.  Mormons would have us believe that Christ left the Church as an “orphan” to wither and waste away into apostasy shortly after or even during the life of the apostles.  While these broken promises may not pose a problem to Mormons with their low view of the inspiration of Scripture, to confessional Protestants they become one of many proofs for the fabrication of Mormon apostasy claims.  The cognitive dissonance of this Mormon belief is readily apparent when you examine Mormon claims that their priesthood powers will not be taken away, that their prophets cannot lead them astray, or that their subjective personal revelatory power protects them from doctrinal apostasy.

Generally, Mormons are putting the cart before the horse with all of their emphasis at proving prophetic predictions or sings of a general apostasy without first proving a Mormon style Church in the first century AD.  The fact that Mormons are unable to show the presence of priesthood system in the apostolic age is the nail in the Mormon restoration story’s coffin.  The absence of doctrines unique to Mormonism from the records of Church history has not stopped Mormon writers from continuing the “pile it on” approach to a general apostasy and “Rejection of Priesthood Leaders as a Cause of the Great Apostasy” by John A. Tvedtnes is a perfect example of this tack.

Mr. Tvedtnes is a well known Mormon apologist and academic, readers may remember the series of posts that I did regarding an article of his about Martin Luther.   This article has an intriguing title and I expected to see an examination of a Mormon style priesthood system and the loss of this priesthood “authority/power” in the early Church and how this related to the general apostasy story of Mormon theology.  Sadly any attempt to prove the presence of a Mormon priesthood system or even a Mormon ecclesiology is completely missing from Mr. Tvedtnes’ article.  Mr. Tvedtnes continues with the same “pile it on” method of Mormon apostasy writing.  Swamp the reader with quotes both predicting or showing apostasy (both moral and doctrinal) and they will have to conclude that Mormons are correct in their belief of an apostasy.

Mr. Tvedtnes begins with a thesis that without the divine revelation associated with the apostles the early Church was unable to identify or to stop the spread of false doctrines.  He claims that “apostles and prophets” governed the early Church and that there absence directly lead to apostasy in the Church.  In order to prove this one would think that Mr. Tvedtnes would show that apostles were needed in order to detect and work against false doctrines and moral declines in the Church and that no other method was available after the death of the apostles.  One would also think that Mr. Tvedtnes would want to prove that the early Church was unable to detect false teaching, that early “priesthood” holders understood that the missing apostles had created a gap in needed divine revelation, and that the ecclesiology of the early Church was similar (not exactly) to the restored Mormon Church.  Mr. Tvedtnes should also have address why divine revelation would have been a proof against apostasy, biblically this has never been the case.  Mr. Tvednes does not address any of these issues.  Nor does he go beyond claiming that an apostasy took place in his attempt to prove that an apostasy took place.

While “Rejection of Priesthood Leaders as a Cause of the Great Apostasy” is a common Mormon “pile it on” attempt at proving an apostasy and probably intended only to convince Mormons, it is interesting because of the source material that Mr. Tvedtnes uses.  A large amount of material is to be expected in a “pile it on” apologetic, what is not expected it that most of the material used in the article is available online and with a little time quotes can be read in context and the material can be reviewed for general themes to see if they coincide with the claims of the apologist.

I have a theory about restoration style Churches that this article seems to prove.  In 1830 when Joseph Smith was “restoring” Mormonism it was an easy claim to be retuning to the original apostolic beliefs.  Joseph Smith was not alone in his desire to restore the Church to its New Testament origins in the nineteenth century.  Abner Jones (1772-1841), Elias Smith (1769-1846), Barton W. Stone (1772-1844), and the father and son team of, Thomas Campbell (1763-1854) and Alexander Campbell (1788-1866) are some of the better known.  An absence of available material on the early Church left believers susceptible to the claims of these men.  Smith was able to use this absence of available material as a cover for his claims regarding restoring apostolic ecclesiology, beliefs, and priesthood systems.  Today’s Mormon apologists can no longer hide behind the unavailability of material so they regularly use the “pile it on” method.  For years this method has worked because while the existence of early Church writing is commonly known it was not commonly available.  All of this has changed.  With sites like Christian Classics Ethereal Library is not only available but it is so easily accessed that the only reason for the “pile it on” approach to work is a failure to check the sources or to think critically about the material presented.

~ by gundek on July 11, 2009.

18 Responses to “Where is that pesky priesthood??? (part 1)”

  1. If there was no falling away from the truth then that means that the church today has the same doctrines, organization and practices as the early Christian church.

    So then, which church has apostles, bishops, etc., Which church has an unpaid ministry, revelation from God, spiritual gifts such as healings, preaches repentence (Acts 3:19). Also, note that the early Christian church commanded it’s members to sell their property and give the money to the church leaders so that they could distribute to the poor. The penalty for a couple who did not comply was death by God (Acts 4:34 thru Acts 5:11). Clearly, the early Christian church was not a wimpy, do whatever you like organization.

    If you do not believe that there was a falling away, then the Catholic church is the only one that could possibly be the Lords church. There was no other church before the protestant reformation.

    Ephesians 4:11, 14 says: “And he gave some apostles, prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers; That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine”.

    • Peter,

      Thank your for your kind comments.

      If you are truly interested in the early Church go to the horses mouth. You should start with the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians written in the first century AD, about the same time as the book of Revelation. You will of course notice a total absence of a priesthood either Mormon or Roman in Clements letter and the New Testament. Pay particular attention to the role of Elders and Deacons.

      Does Acts 3:19 say an “unpaid ministry”? Sorry but there is nothing in the New Testament that claims a requirement for an unpaid ministry, quite the contrary in fact (1 Cor 9:9; 1 Tim 5:18). I don’t see how we can expect a man to go to college and graduate school, in order to learn Church history, Greek, Hebrew, theology, etc and not provide them with a wage. Presbyterians require a high degree of learning from our ministers. We expect them to preach the Word of God and to minister to the Church, just like the Levites were provided for, we should provide for our minsters.

      If any book of the Bible shows that a general apostasy did not happen it is Ephesians. It will clear up the office of apostle for you, they were the once and for all foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20). Their role was unique. Christ is the Head of the Church (Eph 1:22-23; 4:15; 5:23), He sacrificed Himself for the Church (Eph 5:25). To assume that Christ would let the Church die or to fall into total apostasy questions the Christ’s promise to uphold, sustain and defend the Church(Eph 5:29). Ephesians 4:11 gives a list of roles that will “equip”the “saints for the work in the ministry”. I would say that the Apostles by giving us there apostolic teaching in the New Testament have “Equipped” us fulfilling the role assigned to them in the passage. It is now the responsibility of the “Saints” to preform the “work in the ministry…” Paul knows he will not be around forever, that I believe is why his emphasis is so tied to doctrine. He knew it was the equipment that the Saints would use to build up the Body of Christ.

      Reading Acts 4:34-5:11 I do not see a command for Christians to sell their property and give the money to the church leaders. I do see that it was done voluntarily (Acts 5:4). Ananias and Sapphira died for lying to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3, 4, 9) not for withholding money.

      I also think the Orthodox Church may dispute your claim that the Roman Church was the only Church. You see the primacy of the Roman see occurred much latter (late second century).

  2. gd: I don’t see how we can expect a man to go to college and graduate school, in order to learn Church history, Greek, Hebrew, theology, etc and not provide them with a wage.

    GB: I don’t recall the Apostles doing those things. I don’t find (in the Bible) those things being a requirement for church leadership.

    gd: Ephesians 4:11 gives a list of roles that will “equip”the “saints for the work in the ministry”.

    GB: It also tells us how long those roles would be necessary.

    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Are we “in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God”?

    IF not, THEN we still need “some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;”

    This is one of those cases where the Bible is plain and clear, and yet the majority of the Christian world just don’t believe it.

    • GB,

      It is good to hear from you, it has been a long time. I hope that all is well with you.

      As I pointed out to Peter 1 Cor 9:9; 1 Tim 5:18 both show that ministers in the Church deserve a wage for their labors. Correct me if I am wrong but your apostles receive a stipend from the Mormon Church. What is the difference? Your Church has decided that it is best supported by a laity driven ministry, while there is no Biblical command for an unpaid clergy one of the side affects is a lack of training that your clergy has.

      The apostles are the once and for all foundation of the faith (Eph 2:20) if we followed the testimony of the apostles we would have doctrinal unity that is provided in the teachings revealed in the Bible. This foundation laid by the apostles, the direct witnesses of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only men qualified to give their testimony about Christs teaching, has been providentially preserved and delivered to us. We ignore, challenge, or change this testimony at our peril.

      I think that you are missing the entire point of Paul’s message in Ephesians 4:1-16. Paul tells us that there is “There is one body, and one Spirit” (Eph 4:4a) Paul’s argument, that there is “unity in Christ” and that each man is to do the duty he is “called” runs counter to your claim that we need men to bring us the unity that has already been established “in Christ.” The Church is “one with Christ”, he repeats the word one 9 times in this chapter 7 in the opening alone. Paul clearly tells us that all of these offices (Eph 4:11) are a calling from God, in order to build up the ONE Body of Christ. He does not claim that there will be apostles forever, he does not claim that there will be divine canonical revelation forever. He does claim that there is “There is one body, and one Spirit…” I am surprised at how you are missing this message of Unity with Christ in order to promote men into positions for which there is no call or qualification, and a position that has only divided you from the Church.

      • GD,

        I think you need to re-read my post. I said nothing about “wages”.

        I would have to point out that by your definition, “There is one body. . .” and the fact that there are 100’s of DIFFERENT “Christian” churches, is another prima facie evidence that a general apostasy occurred.

        Even your statement to Peter “I also think the Orthodox Church may dispute your claim that the Roman Church was the only Church.” is another evidence, when using your definition.

        I will also point out to you that no where in the Bible is the phrase “once and for all” used in association with the foundation of Apostles and prophets.

        I will also point out to you that because the foundation of the Church is the apostles and prophets, that when the apostles and prophets were rejected and murdered that left the Church WITHOUT its foundation. And the implications are obvious.

        I will agree with you that ‘The Church is “one with Christ”’ when it has the foundation of apostles and prophets as Christ established it.

        As I said in my post the verses in Eph 4 are very clear and plain. Christ “gave some, apostles; and some, prophets;” “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,”

        I am surprised at how you are missing this message. I am surprised at how you are missing the DIS-unity in the “Christian” world. (You know people have been and are being murdered because of this DIS-unity, right?

        • If your objection is not to wages then what exactly is your objection? Is it your contention that ignorance of Greek, Hebrew, Church history, theology etc. is a good thing for a minister tasked with preaching the word of Christ? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of Christ, how can a life dedicated to the study of theology and the preaching of the word be wrong? Paul tells Timothy to use the Scripture for teaching rebuking etc (2 Tim 3:14-17). How is this done without a clear understanding of the language used as well as the historical setting of the Old and New Testaments? Or is ignorance of the law and the gospel a virtue?

          Christ’s Church is given the qualifications for elders (1 Tim 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-16) and deacons (1 Tim 3:8-15), just like the qualifications for apostles (Luke 6:12-13; Acts 1:21-26; 10:39-41) your Church has chosen to ignore all of these biblical qualifications and requirements. Open the Bible read Mt. 10:1 and 2 Cor 12:11-12. Can your apostles do this? They fail to meet the qualification of apostleship.

          When you read Ephesians 4:11, 12 (for building) it is apparent that Paul is continuing the same train of thought and using the same building metaphor that he started in Ephesians 2:19, 20 (built on). He has used this same language before in 1 Cor 3:10-15. He clearly says that only Christ can lay the foundation (v11). By your reasoning the foundation could not stand because the apostles were taken away. In the same passage Christ is called the cornerstone despite his physical absence so following your logic there is no possibility of a Church. Paul teaches in Eph 2:19, 20 the role of apostles. Your apostles give dress codes not the gospel. John shows the same thing in Rev. 21:14, the apostles have a foundational role, these men did the greater works that Jesus spoke of in John 14:12 and established, founded and built on the teachings of Jesus turning this into the visible Church.

        • GD: Is it your contention that ignorance of Greek, Hebrew, Church history, theology etc. is a good thing for a minister tasked with preaching the word of Christ?

          GB: WOW!! Talk about taking liberties with what I said.

          Those things may be nice to have, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ with the power of the Holy Ghost.

          GD: How is this done without a clear understanding of the language used as well as the historical setting of the Old and New Testaments?

          GB: So are you saying that the Bible isn’t translated correctly? Are you saying that the Holy Ghost is incapable of directly revealing truth to an authorized servant of God?

          GD: . . . your Church has chosen to ignore all of these biblical qualifications and requirements.

          GB: Not all of those things are requirements for apostleship, but simply descriptions of some of the ancient apostles experiences.

          Being called of God and duly ordained by one have authority to do so are the ONLY real requirements. And YES, our Apostles meet these requirements.

          GD: Can your apostles do this?

          GB: Of course, they just don’t go around bragging about it.

          GD: By your reasoning the foundation could not stand because the apostles were taken away.

          GB: BINGO!!! Like I said, prima facie evidence that a general apostasy occurred.

          GD: In the same passage Christ is called the cornerstone despite his physical absence so following your logic there is no possibility of a Church.

          GB: Not until new apostles were called and ordained.

          GD: . . . the apostles have a foundational role,

          GB: BINGO!!!

          And without them there is NO FOUNDATION!!! and the church collapses and is destroyed by the “wolves” that entered the “flock”.

  3. Also,

    The lack of “some, apostles; and some, prophets” in the “Christian” church IS PRIMA FACIE evidence that a general apostasy occurred.

    • GB,

      I am sorry but saying this does not make your case. If you are looking for proof of a general apostasy you will need to look somewhere else than Ephesians as I have shown both you and Peter.

      • GD,

        I am sorry but saying this does not make your case. :-)

        If you are looking for dis-proof of a general apostasy you will need to look somewhere else than Ephesians as I have shown you. :-)

        • I don’t have to disprove a general apostasy Mormons have never proven a Mormon style church in any age much less the first century AD. Until you show a Mormon church to restore there could not have been a Mormon apostasy.

        • Mormon is the nickname given by Non-Mormons similar to the nickname “Christian” was given by Non-Christian.

          The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saint. The Latter-Day Saint part distinguishes modern members from the ancient saints.

          Are you saying that there wasn’t an ancient Church of Jesus Christ?

  4. Wow!! GD, I must have hit a nerve, for your response is just unsubstantiated assertion.

    gd: Having ministers qualified to work from the original languages is important for a understanding of the message.

    GB: Having ministers properly called and authorized who are guided by the Holy Spirit is what is REALLY important.

    gd: I think that your inability to understand the building metaphor used by Paul and that a foundation once laid does not go away just because its builder pass on is an example of the importance of clear understand if languages used in the Bible.

    GB: It is your inability to understand the building metaphor used by Paul and that when the foundation laid is destroyed the building is destroyed.

    gd: None of your apostles can preform miraculous healing, none of your apostles raise the dead, none are physical witnesses of Jesus Christs earthly ministry, none of your apostles were accepted by the apostles called by Christ.

    GB: That is an UNPROVABLE position to be sure. And your saying it doesn’t make it so. Again, unbeknown to you, you present ANOTHER evidence of the general apostasy. The fact that you admit that there are NO SPIRITUAL gifts in (your perception) of the “Christian” world is another indication that the spirit and power of God was lost. :-)

    gd: Your Church . . . with apostle?

    GB: You clearly fail to understand that Christ, as head of His Church can do with it what He will. Also you CANNOT prove that those were requirements for the offices in general or only guidelines proved to the recipients of those epistles.

    Again, the fact that you admit that revelation has ceased in (your view of) the “Christian” world is more evidence that a general apostasy has occurred, for Christ guide His ancient Church through REVELATION to His appointed leaders.

    gd: Your Church . . . ordained offices.

    GB: See above.

    GD: You can rant and rave all you want but the foundation of the Church was laid by the apostles.

    GB: WOW!! HOW COULD YOU BE SO WRONG? The Bible is CLEAR that it was JESUS that laid the foundation and that foundation was the apostles and the prophets.

    gd: A foundation does not disapear when the builder passes on.

    GB: No, it doesn’t, but the building does collapse when the foundation is destroyed which is what happened with the disappearance of the apostles and prophets.

    gd: Paul taught us the ordained offices for the Church Elders and Deacons this is part of the foundation that your Church is unwilling to follow.

    GB: See above.

    gd: There was no priesthood in the early Church, except for the priesthood of all believers. . .

    GB: There was no “priesthood of all believers” in the early church. That is a notion developed by Martin Luther and has no basis in scripture or revelation. Luther had to come up with some scheme to be able to claim authority because he knew that when he apostatized from the Roman Church that they would cut him off.

    GD: there was no temple worship for gentiles, and the only temple recognized in the NT was destroyed in AD 70.

    GB: So? Irrelevant, even if true.

    gd: You cannot make up a religion in 1830 and claim to restore something that never existed no matter what name you pick.

    GB: :-) God is able to restore His Church. :-)
    Regardless of what you say about the subject.

    gd: Following your logic about the “official” name of your Church would mean that there could have never been a general apostasy as long as the Church confessed Christ.

    GB: That statement makes no sense. I would say that it is YOUR logic (a bit of a misnomer in this case) that is flawed.

    In spite of our differences I do wish that you have a good day. :-)

    • GB,

      Don’t worry, you have not hit a nerve. I find your defense of Mormon apostasy theology typical of the thinking that I have read from your Church. I have not claimed that knowledge of the original languages supplants the need for the Holy Spirit, far from it, the Holy Spirit is essential in the preaching of the Word. It would also be inappropriate to only rely on the Sprit and not study the Word.

      If it is your position that your apostles have been raising the dead, I would be interested in hearing more. I understand that your Church claims to be a restoration of the original Church, it follows that you would use the same requirements as Paul enumerated

      If you want to argue that Christians require another mediator besides Christ I would be interested in your theories but just because the priesthood of all believers is a doctrine recognized and taught by the Reformers doesn’t make it untrue.

      I always enjoy your comments, thanks again for taking the time to make them.

      • As you know there is a difference between having a power and actually demonstrating it to the world.

        You have the power to end the life of your spouse. I hope you don’t demonstrate it to the world (or in private.)

        You should also know that you can’t exercise the power of God without His specific consent or to glorify yourself.

        And don’t you worry either, I find your arguemtns agaist Mormonism rather typical of the anti-Mormon crowd. Although, I keep hoping your scholarship will improve.

        I think if you look at it again you will find that some of those things of Paul’s that you think are requirements are really suggestions/advise. :-)

        • GB,

          I think that the fact that these requirements are in both the letters to Titus and Timothy and that many of the same requirements are listed for both the offices of elder and deacon tends to the position that they are not simply suggestions. Even if the material for choosing deacons and elders are suggestions they certainly lead us to the conclusion that these biblically mandated Church offices are to be held by mature men of good reputation and sound faith, not boys and teenagers. Surprisingly yours is the position taken by people who ordain women to the ministry and lay leadership in the Mainline Presbyterian Church.

          Your analogy of power is off base for the biblical reason for miracles, a demonstration of the power of God to authenticate the authority of the person who is called to reveal the will of God.

  5. I am not saying that the Bible is translated incorrectly, I am saying that in translating of any language there is going to be nuances and phraseology that is missed in that translation. Having ministers qualified to work from the original languages is important for a understanding of the message. I think that your inability to understand the building metaphor used by Paul and that a foundation once laid does not go away just because its builder pass on is an example of the importance of clear understand if languages used in the Bible.

    None of your apostles can preform miraculous healing, none of your apostles raise the dead, none are physical witnesses of Jesus Christs earthly ministry, none of your apostles were accepted by the apostles called by Christ.

    Your Church calls deacons at age 12, it is hard to see how they can, hold to “the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience” or have been, “first be proved” or “be the husband of one wife ruling their children and their own houses well.” If your Church is unable to follow the clear biblical qualification for the office of deacon is it any surprise that you have difficulty with apostle?

    Your Church calls elder at 19 once again it is difficult to see how these teenagers are the “husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” or prove themselves “blameless, as the steward of God” or ” “manage his own household well.” Your church is doing violence to the word of God by ordaining boys to these biblically ordained offices.

    You can rant and rave all you want but the foundation of the Church was laid by the apostles. A foundation does not disapear when the builder passes on. Paul taught us the ordained offices for the Church Elders and Deacons this is part of the foundation that your Church is unwilling to follow. There was no priesthood in the early Church, except for the priesthood of all believers, there was no temple worship for gentiles, and the only temple recognized in the NT was destroyed in AD 70. You cannot make up a religion in 1830 and claim to restore something that never existed no matter what name you pick.

  6. GB,

    Sometimes I cannot tell if you are being serious in the positions that you present or just throwing out any argument that you can. Following your logic about the “official” name of your Church would mean that there could have never been a general apostasy as long as the Church confessed Christ.

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